Talk:Turkey and refugees from Nazis

Matt Innis acting as author on this page

I'm taking off my constable hat to help with the formatting of this article. --D. Matt Innis 23:59, 17 November 2007 (CST)

Gentlemen:

After much doing and undoing this article is taking shape as far as I am concerned. Please someone add the image of the even more recently discovered Inonu letter to Einstein, cross link this with related papers, and create the meta data whatever that is.

As for the copyright issue I would like to add FYI another article to my discussion below as it is even more relevant in showing that I am very sensitive to issues of copyrights.

Reisman, A. (2006), Illegal Transfer of Technologies: A Taxonomic View, Journal of Engineering and Technology Management, Vol 23, pp 292-312

Downloadable from: http://ssrn.com/abstract=532522

Title

This article clearly needs to be retitled and formatted--many of Reisman's articles need formatting. As to a title, something like Albert Einstein's role in securing safe haven for Jews in Turkey in WWII. One can hardly imagine a more specialized topic, but it strikes me as a perfectly legitimate topic. The whole simply needs to be rewritten in the form of a self-contained introduction to the topic itself, like any encyclopedia article. --Larry Sanger 20:44, 17 November 2007 (CST)

How about "Turkey as refuge for Jews in 1930s" as main title and this is one section. Richard Jensen 21:30, 17 November 2007 (CST)

For a title how about: Turkey as refuge for Nazi persecuted intellectuals: Albert Einstein's role The point being is 1. not all had Jewish roots e.g. the Ernst Reuter family 2. One of my other articles already addresses the larger role. 3. This article focuses on Einstein' role

Copyright caveat unnecessary. This author published two articles in refereed journals on the subject of piracy of intellectual property. They are: Reisman, A. (2005). To catch a thief you must think like a thief. Are you up to it? ORMS Today ,Cover story, 32(1) pgs. 21-25. April, downloadable from: http://ssrn.com/abstract=639701

Reisman, A. (2004) “Transfer of Technologies: A cross-disciplinary taxonomy”. Omega: The International Journal of Management Science. 33(3) pp 189-202. Downloadable from: http://ssrn.com/abstract=529423 Also available online via ScienceDirect: http://authors.elsevier.com/sd/article/S0305048304000647

The point being is 1. I am aware of the issues. 2. Since the images concerned have appeared in a Turkish newspaper, article that I have published in a refereed journal, on the History News Network, Turkish Armenians Blog, and at least one can be found on Google Image Search. Your caveat is an unnecessary cover-your-ass-for-all-eventualities approach. 3. For future reference e.g. other images that I provide for other articles, please assume that you are dealing with someone very much aware and keenly sensititve to the protection of intellectual property rights.

Why is the second image and discssion not included???--Arnold Reisman 06:33, 18 November 2007 (CST)

Arnold, I'd be interested to hear your views of why prior publishing of an image and its appearance on the Internet automatically places it into the public domain. I've never read anything about such a view, except in articles aimed at clearing up common misconceptions. Also, I'm interested in your views about why offering the general public details about the provenance of materials is a bad thing. Stephen Ewen 20:17, 18 November 2007 (CST)

We should merge this into the mainarticle on Turkey and the Holocaust. People will simply be confused with two articles. Since Einstein did very little, there is no no point in so much coverage. Richard Jensen 07:22, 18 November 2007 (CST)

Let me clarify a point of policy here. Unless we seriously believe a violation of CZ:Maintainability is possible, there is no reason that we cannot have absolute boatloads of information about Einstein's role in using Turkey as a safe haven during the Holocaust. I don't know that CZ has any policy that allows one to conclude, "there is no point in so much coverage" of something. I would prefer if we simply let people add information--as long as it is in the form of an encyclopedia article--as they wish. Yes, the topic is very specialized, but (modulo maintainability) that's quite all right. --Larry Sanger 09:52, 18 November 2007 (CST)

formatting

Arnold, I made a couple of formatting edits. See what you think before I do anything more. There are other things we can do, too, so if it doesn't work for you, just let me know and we will try something different. --D. Matt Innis 22:13, 17 November 2007 (CST)

After looking at the sources at the bottom of the page, I'm thinking that some are references and some are just further reading. If you let me know what you want to do with each of them, I can get try and help you get them formatted. --D. Matt Innis 23:01, 17 November 2007 (CST)

trouble

The article is not about Einstein. He signed some form letters that were used but otherwise the text and footnotes make it clear he had minimal involvement. So we need to rethink this piece. I've made a start. Richard Jensen 23:24, 17 November 2007 (CST)

That was a big change. I agree that some of the endnotes seemed to suggest that. You and Dr. Reisman are editors in this workgroup, so I'll just stick to copy edits. --D. Matt Innis 00:01, 18 November 2007 (CST)

I'm the editor and Dr. Reisman is the author. It seems clear from the text that Einstein had a minor role, hence the new ttitle. Our goal is to focus the article on the big issue, which was Turkey's takling in refugees. Richard Jensen 00:06, 18 November 2007 (CST)

You might be right. It's hard to tell as there are no tags on Dr. Reisman's user page to let us know wither way. Meanwhile, we can probably link some of those references to various statements, but if the article isn't about Einstein, who and when did Turkey start to protect the Jews? --D. Matt Innis 00:13, 18 November 2007 (CST)

I have no interest as an author here, but I have to say that this title (as seen since it keeps poping up in recent changes) is striking in its specificity. I have to agree with Richard that Einstein's role is a footnote in this historical event. To have his name in the title implies a far larger role and is misleading. Chris Day (talk) 22:59, 18 November 2007 (CST)

Richard, with all due respect, I'd like to ask you to please step back, let Dr. Reisman restore the content he originally added, and develop it into a self-contained article. He is an expert on this topic. We haven't had the time to consider his CV, so he might well become an editor. Once the article is in a form he's satisfied with, others who are not as expert as he is on the topic will be able to offer more appropriate feedback. I don't of course mean to say that he owns the topic, but that he is the one developing the article, and he is the expert; so let's stand back and watch for now. --Larry Sanger 10:02, 18 November 2007 (CST)

Larry, with all due respect, that is not CZ policy. Your own view on this has been stated recently, that "anyone should feel free to edit any article at any time". Whether Dr Reisman is an editor or not is immaterial: there should be discussion between different people on what is appropriate presentation of material. There is also a reasonable role for editorial oversight, on whether material is relevant to the article focus. I have some concerns that this article looks like the property of one person, which is inappropriate as you well know. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 17:24, 18 November 2007 (CST)

more changes

I made some more changes, mostly for clarity and flow, I think. I did make a decision based on the references I saw about the letter itself. See what you think before I move on. I'm not a historian and certainly don't want to re-write or mis-write history here. --D. Matt Innis 20:02, 18 November 2007 (CST)

Inappropriate article title

This is definitely unacceptable as a title. Please change it back and discuss changes to titles with others on the Talk page. We are ending up with ridiculous article titles.--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 19:00, 30 November 2007 (CST)

I definitely agree with Martin on this. I suggest Albert Einstein: Turkey as a refuge for eminent intellectuals during the 1930s so that it could plausibly be spun off from an Albert Einstein article. My own suggestion is preposterously clumsy, I think, but so are all the other titles that have so far been used. Mine, at least, has a more academic tone to it, I think.Hayford Peirce 19:19, 30 November 2007 (CST)

the title is emotional and unencyclopedic. it is also false since the article suggests Einstein merely signed some blank sheets that other people used to write the plea. We need to delete it ot merge it into the Turkey-as-refuge article. Richard Jensen 21:18, 13 December 2007 (CST)

Richard, I object to you deleting sweeping sections of content without prior discussion with the principal (specialist) author. I suggest you put them back. --Robert W King 21:50, 13 December 2007 (CST)

No significant information was deleted. This is an encyclopedia and unencylopedic material does not make the cut. The problem is that it was written as a personal essay--we have a separate place for that on CZ. The fottnote (deleted) indicated that none of the hundreds of experts on Einstein agree that he played a major role with Turkey. He never wrote the letter and the letter was rejected.Richard Jensen 21:55, 13 December 2007 (CST)

I don't think that is for you alone to judge. Chasing away (temporarily) one principal constable does not give you authority to make decisions like this. --Robert W King 21:56, 13 December 2007 (CST)

The new title doesn't work either. I agree that the footnotes do support Richard's position if the sources are reliable (I haven't made any assertion either way on that). Perhaps the problem is not the title (I'm not thrilled with the new title either), but more that it should be a subpage of a larger article on Turkey and/or Albert Einstein. As a signed article, the deleted material that Robert and Professor Reisman are concerned about could stay and the reader could weigh the facts and opinions according to the footnotes. Whatcha think? Remember, I am an author on this page. --D. Matt Innis 22:07, 13 December 2007 (CST)

I'm not sure what the title should be, but I think that is an amicable solution (to have it as a signed article). --Robert W King 22:10, 13 December 2007 (CST)

How about something like Turkey as a refuge from Nazi Germany and placed as a subpage of Turkey and Albert Einstein? --D. Matt Innis 22:14, 13 December 2007 (CST)

The more I think about it... maybe a subpage of Turkey but then give short section in the Albert Einstein article that discusses this assertion. --D. Matt Innis 22:36, 13 December 2007 (CST)

the personal-article solution seems to fit. The very title with words like "Savior" make it personal and unencyclopedic. The fact that Einstein had minimal involvement means putting his name in the title is highly misleading. (He was a famous person who signed many petitions--I'd guess the same letter went to 30 different coutries. in this case he did not even read it.) Richard Jensen 22:45, 13 December 2007 (CST)

If we had a reference for the 30 different countries that could be added. It would change the direction not so much toward the Turkey connection as it would give Einstein the more dominant position in the article as making the effort anyway he could. However, if he did not do this and if it was somebody else, it would be best to find out who that was. I am not sure that I have seen anything to suggest that he did not read it, though the greater possibility is certainly that he didn't, but I think we have to be careful to make sure we don't make statements either way (or at the very least make statements both ways). I think it is possible to write it to satisfy both assumptions, but it would be better not to assume anything. --D. Matt Innis 08:02, 14 December 2007 (CST)

I agree with Matt here. With many books on Einstein there ought to be some coverage of his humanitarian work in print. None are cited or seem to have been consulted, which is a serious flaw in this article. 15:20, 14 December 2007 (CST)

the quote

Arnold, I have been looking for a reference for the quote that we have at the bottom of this article:

“What made Einstein the man of this century was not just his mind, it was also his soul”

I think if we had someone to credit for this quote it would be fine, but as it is, it sounds like we are saying it. Even if it is you, since you have written on this subject before, or maybe "anonymous". It would be more professional. Do you have a source? --D. Matt Innis 08:26, 14 December 2007 (CST)