Template:CharterVote2/40/Discussion

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I'm not so conversant with the workings of the Mediawiki software to know this, but is it possible to completely remove parts of articles from the database such that they are not even accessible by the history? The Ombudsman could re-write a page and then delete the original (but the original still remains somewhere in the Db and can be recovered). Given that we are operating under our real names, we should have the right to have dispute resolutions resolved privately and the record expunged, no? Russell D. Jones 14:36, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Normally, dispute resolutions should be heard in public. However,

1. Participants may request that disputes be heard privately.
2. Privately heard disputes forfeit their right to appeal on technical grounds.
3. in some cases, either at the discretion of the appellant council or at the request of a grievant, part of a public dispute resolution process may be restricted to a smaller audience permanently removed from the Citizendium. Such an exception shall require public justification by the Ombudsman.

Agree (I added a comma at the end of grievant) D. Matt Innis 21:23, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Howard C. Berkowitz 01:57, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Joe Quick 05:05, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Russell D. Jones 05:34, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Wait a minute. What if the appellant requests us to permanently remove something that makes him/her look bad, but is essential to the case against them. If we permanently delete it, we permanently delete any defense of our actions in the real world, opening us up to an indefensible lawsuit. Am I being paranoid? haha. Maybe we should just remove it to another more private spot (such as the constable wiki). Perhaps we should say:

• in some cases, either at the discretion of the appellant council or at the request of a grievant, part of a public dispute resolution process may be permanently removed from the Citizendium expunged from public view. Such an exception shall require public justification by the Ombudsman.

I'm not totally happy with the language, yet. Help? D. Matt Innis 12:37, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

The more I think about this, the more I am hesitant to remove things completely. Now, if the Constable Wiki is to be brought into this, we need to identify it as a nonpublic function.

As a private organization, it's much more difficult to block legal action, but courts are very reluctant to delete things that could be considered essential to a case. This whole area may be one in which the MC needs to get legal advice. I am hesitant to have an Orwell/1984-style "Memory Hole."

In the 1975(?) IBM antitrust suit, the participants agreed to destroy the index but not the contents. If you look at state secrets privilege, you will find some precedent for sealing records. One possibility, at such time as CZ has legal counsel, is to have the lawyers hold sensitive material.

I'm not yet ready to discuss specific language; we either need to talk more, or agree on a broad principle and decide the details properly belong to the MC. Howard C. Berkowitz 14:55, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

I think the aim here is to provide the option to "seal" a case from public view. Matt, you've persuaded me. How about we add an exception empowering the MC to develop policy. It should be understood that such MC policy could be challenged by citizens and placed on a referendum. Russell D. Jones 17:40, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

• In some cases, either at the discretion of the appellant council or at the request of a grievant, part of a public dispute resolution process may be expunged from public view. Such an exception shall require public justification by the Ombudsman. This article may be revised and substituted by policy developed by the Managerial Management Council.

I can agree to "blocking public view"; "expunging from public view" is confusing. Expunging is not a good idea. Howard C. Berkowitz 17:46, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Haha, Howard's right. Expunged pretty much means 'permanently destroyed'. Something better than "blocking public view"? D. Matt Innis 21:52, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Blocking is awkward. "Sealed" is too legal. Does someone have a better word? We agree in principle, I think. Howard C. Berkowitz 22:02, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

What about "hidden"? --Daniel Mietchen 23:03, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

• In some cases, either at the discretion of the appellant council or at the request of a grievant, part of a public dispute resolution process may be hidden from public view. Such an exception shall require public justification by the Ombudsman. This article may be revised and substituted by policy developed by the Management Council.

Agree Russell D. Jones 23:22, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

"Hidden" has an unfortunate negative connotation, as in "something to hide." Who will have custody of this material? Who can see it? Howard C. Berkowitz 23:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Suggest an alternative. Jones 23:31, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I Was adding this to the end too, but got in an edit conflict: "This article may be revised and substituted by policy developed by the Management Council provided such policy protects citizens' privacy.

In other words, the MC just can't substitute this article with a policy that says "All dispute resolutions shall always be viewable." Russell D. Jones 23:22, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I was going to suggest "restricted", but that implies restricted access is available to someone. This is something we need to define, which, in turn, may allow the article to be structured as "restricted to"... Howard C. Berkowitz 23:51, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Given that it's a wiki, the record will always be somewhere in the database unless some systems admin really hacks at the Db. Even deleted articles can be recovered with their history intact. And yes, restricted to officials of the Citizendium (who should have access) and the grievants. But, really? is "hiding text" even technically possible? A page wipe won't work if the history is intact. Creating a new page as a place holder and deleting the other, deletes the record except to a sysop who can recover the deletion.

So, this article proposes to delete the dispute resolution page. That would put barriers to access even though it wouldn't completely erase it. Is that what it means? Russell D. Jones 00:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think you can accomplish something by deleting (or locking) the dispute resolution page -- some development may be needed to have fine-grained read access. If it's not too wild an analogy, I'm thinking of things such as Presidential archives of national security decisions, where some are simply listed as "classified title." That doesn't lose the history that something happened on that date, but only officials (and other participants) can see it.

Of course, we can't protect from previous copies being published elsewhere. Howard C. Berkowitz 00:19, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

There is a feature of wiki software called 'nuke-revision' the totally and permanently deletes the post and the history of the post from the computer. It cannot be recovered. The only person that has the power at this point is the Chief Constable and it was used a couple times to delete obscene and humiliating material placed on Nancy Sculerati's user page and in the edit summary by a vandal. D. Matt Innis 01:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I think there are times, due to privacy concerns, there might be a time when decisions need to be made behind closed doors, maybe by email and never in a place that can be googled. We need to leave this up to the discretion of the OMB at the request of the grievant. The MC should not be able to request it. D. Matt Innis 01:21, 20 July 2010 (UTC)