Template:CharterVote2/29/Discussion

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Change nominate to appoint as stated above somehwere.

  • The Management Council is responsible for the community's environment and its technical and economic resources. In particular, it shall:
  1. appoint and supervise the activities of Constables,
  2. manage technical matters (software and hardware), and
  3. advise on matters of administration of financial and legal obligations of the Citizendium.
  4. It shall also establish and maintain public awareness, and
  5. invite and establish collaboration with external partners on any matters relevant to the project's mission.

D. Matt Innis 20:28, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

  • Change "matters" to "resources" in clause 2.
  • Adding "providing policy supervision of representatives to external bodies" in clause 5. Howard C. Berkowitz 22:04, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
I see the MC as overseeing the Bot process. I'm not sure that "resources" is inclusive enough to manage processes like that.
I don't see "providing policy supervision" as necessary. If we don't trust the representatives then why not just fire them.
D. Matt Innis 22:47, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Just from the perspective of a software person, I consider both bots and programmers to be resources. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. :-)
Would it help to make the oversight more specific to the ME? Matt, I'm really trying for compromise here, but yes -- I don't trust the ME function without clear oversight. Oversight is fairly clear for editorial, but not representational matters. Howard C. Berkowitz 22:58, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
"providing policy supervision" means nothing and is just political fluff to try to pretend that MC can tell the ME what to say. Will the ME be obliged to say what they want him/her to say... no, I don't think so. If the ME says the wrong thing, then fire him. We have a process for that. D. Matt Innis 23:10, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
I am absolutely in agreement that the Managing Editor, acting as representative, should say what the MC wants him to say. Firing is not the answer. Otherwise, you are creating a Managing Editor without serious checks and balances -- impeachment, in the political process, is the doomsday machine. I cannot see a valid ME role to external bodies that isn't under strict policy control; it's more reasonable to have the ME make interim internal content decisions. The ME is no more qualified to represent CZ in everything than any given editor is qualified to rule on every subject. Proposing autonomous external representatives is creating an Executive Branch, not someone to make quick decisions when others are not available. Howard C. Berkowitz 23:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
You gave the ME the right to choose who will represent us to external sources. He/she doesn't have to do it. Although, I don't have any problem giving the MC the right to choose someone to represent CZ when they want to contact someone. But, it is likely that the ME will be the one that the press will contact and he/she needs to be able to accept that call and refer them to anyone he/she feels can help... he can't tell them to call the Management Council. D. Matt Innis 23:27, 16 July 2010 (UTC)



Re: "Environment

I think by "environment" it is meant "website." The charter seems to be in denial about its identity.... Jones 23:20, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

If one thinks of "website" to include "operating policy", yes, Russell, you are right. I'm not sure, however, that many people would think of the site as, for example, registration and reputation policy and their enforcement. I could be wrong here, but I thought I should bring it up. Howard C. Berkowitz 23:23, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
  • The Management Council is responsible for the technical and economic resources of the Citizendium and its related websites.

D. Matt Innis 23:27, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I'll also point out that this article as proposed above does not empower the MC to write rules of behavior. So, I've added a clause that so empowers the MC. I've also reiterated the powers of the MC as found in other places of this charter. Redundancy is good.

I also assume, Matt, that by "related websites" you are referring to the Forums. What you are proposing is that citizens are bound by the same rules on the forums that they are on CZ. Do the forum admins have the same sorts of user rights in both places (can they ban users, delete content, etc.)? What if we have MC members who just don't participate on the forums much? "Related websites" could also refer to other language CZs.

Last, I'm not yet sold on who is exactly in charge of CZ. Later on the charter talks about a Citizendium Foundation as the owner, but what is that? And is the MC to advise the CF? I put it in here to see what you all think. Russell D. Jones 14:03, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

  • The Management Council is responsible for the technical and economic resources of the Citizendium and its related websites. In particular, it shall:
  1. Develop all rules of civility and behavior for participation on the Citizendium which shall apply equally to all Citizens regardless of status or position,
  2. Administer "User Rights" as defined by the software,
  3. appoint and supervise the activities of Constables,
  4. hear cases as per the dispute resolution process,
  5. conduct elections and certify the results of elections,
  6. set its own rules and by-laws for its meetings,
  7. manage technical matters (software and hardware), and
  8. advise the Citizendium Foundation on matters of administration of financial and legal obligations of the Citizendium.
  9. It shall also establish and maintain public awareness of the Citizendium, and
  10. invite and establish collaboration with external partners on any matters relevant to the Citizendium's mission.
Russell, enlightening you on some facts; currently we also have a Constable wiki, a test wiki and several mailing lists which require maintenance and servicing on occasion. Right now, there are five of seven admins on the forums that are Larry and a couple tech people that have not been active for a couple years (ie, Jason) and Greg and then Hayford and I. Dan maintains the test wiki. We may want more later, I don't know. whatever we end up with should consider these... and, no, not foreign language wikis.D. Matt Innis 14:26, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
That's exactly my point, Matt. We have lots of non-active citizens around who have User Rights who probably shouldn't have them. I see that the granting of User Rights will be the tool to empower certain individuals to carry out their jobs (under the council's powers of delegation). But controlling user rights is nowhere else defined in the charter. Should a Constable have the authority to change user rights status of any citizen on a whim? Should the EC? the Ombudsman? Who decides? Russell D. Jones 12:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
I think you're right. The MC should determine user rights and could also conceivably delegate a person or offical that gets to administer them. D. Matt Innis 12:37, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
This seems to be splitting into two threads: the environment, and then the legal governing structure.
I'd definitely avoid CF, and leave something like the MC is responsible to ensuring that an appropriate legal governance organization exists for ownership of assets, contributions, etc. Don't name it, because if there's no CF in place, someone could create one. Not for Charter language although perhaps Interim Guidance, the MC should ask the Tides Foundation for advice here -- many funding organizations already have a package of 501(c)(3) documentation ready to go, or allow organizations to use their 501(c)(3) structure as they get started.
Where are our funds now? I assume there's a bank account that Larry controls, and into which donations go. Howard C. Berkowitz 15:43, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Exactly. This clause needs to empower the MC as the legal and financial power of CZ. And you're right, since we cut the CF below, this should be re-written here. But I'm running down the Judicial Branch road right now....Russell D. Jones 12:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Here's an updated version to reflect (1) the judicial process and (2) the deletion of the CF from the charter: Russell D. Jones 13:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

  • The Management Council is responsible for the technical and economic resources of the Citizendium and its related websites. In particular, it shall:
  1. make all the financial and legal decisions for the Citizendium,
  2. develop all rules of civility and behavior for participation on the Citizendium which shall apply equally to all Citizens regardless of status or position, adjudicate alleged violations of the rules, and impose sanctions for violations of the rules,
  3. administer "User Rights" as defined by the software,
  4. where necessary, develop operational procedures to implement the powers and institutions of this charter,
  5. appoint and supervise the activities of Constables,
  6. conduct elections and certify the results of elections,
  7. publicly set its own rules and by-laws for its meetings,
  8. manage technical matters (software and hardware),
  9. establish and maintain public awareness of the Citizendium, and
  10. invite and establish collaboration with external partners on any matters relevant to the Citizendium's mission.
added for D. Matt Innis 17:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Added "publicly" to number 7 and agree, despite overlap with other articles. --Daniel Mietchen 21:11, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
  • "Publicly" in this context means on the wiki, right? Russell D. Jones 21:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Agree. Joe Quick 15:36, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
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